Friday, 23 January 2009

Abortion Concern Troll

You know, I didn't really get the concept of 'concern troll' until I met Gordie. This is his third or fourth kick at this can.

I think ProgBlogs needs to look into this. What think you?

ETA: Gordie takes on Birth Pangs.

ETA 2: Documenting for PB, I find it is his fourth kick.


Gordie_Canuk said...

So much for free speech in this progressive country of our's I guess?

Henry Morgentaller is opposed to performing abortions on teenagers who've been hiding their pregnancies...something I agree with, so I guess I and the good Doctor don't pass muster with the definition of progressive according to some.

fern hill said...

Gordie: Is this a long-standing interest of yours? I really don't understand your interest in women's bodies and decisions.

And, much as I respect Dr. Morgentaler (spelled properly), I don't understand that reference either.

Gordie_Canuk said...

What's not to understand Fern? Dr. Morgentaler (sorry for the extra L earlier) is opposed to performing aboriton around the 24 wk mark or later and says that in some cases its the result of teens hiding their pregnancies.

There's misinformation on both sides of this debate (anti-choicers with claims of breast cancer etc) so it's difficult to give either lobby the 'high ground'.

I've heard many bloggers say late term abortion "ONLY" happens for health reasons related to the mother or fetus/child....but Dr. Morgentaler and ARCC say it happens when there are no health issues. I have a tendancy to agree with Obama on this issue, and to accept the views of ARCC and Morgentaler and ARCC.

ADHR said...

Given that ProgBlogs includes a Newfoundland/Labrador separatist and someone who takes seriously the claim that vaccination causes autism, I don't think there's much basis for kicking Gordie off the blogroll because he's got wacky views about abortion. After all, "progressive" is a vague enough word that it's not at all clear whether a progressive has to be in favour of any particular view on abortion.

That said, there's nothing wrong with pointing and laughing at him, either.

Gordie_Canuk said...

Fern...actually yes.

I have had first hand experience with abortion on 2 close to "first hand" as a guy can get. An ex girlfriend and a fiance, fortunately in both cases the procedure was performed in the first trimester, something with which I don't have an issue. I considered it a regretable decision both times...but one which I believe should rest totally with the woman and her doctor.

But in late term abortions that are absent grave medical consequences (to the mother and/or fetus) I agree with Dr. Morgentaler and Obama.

Morgentaler and ARCC both say that abortions take place with teenagers who've been hiding their pregnancies. This is contrary to what many other Pro-Choice advocates say...that late-term abortions are ALWAYS due to medical complications.

That's the difficulty here...both the extremes use disinformation. The anti-choicers with their propaganda about breast cancer, and Pro choicers with their "It doesn't happen rhetoric".

You can't achieve a progressive solution when the polar ends of the debate don't acknowledge simple facts.

Woman at Mile 0 said...

The antithesis of progressive but prog blog doesn't seem to care about these things. Let the blogging tories have him.

Anonymous said...

I've seen that reference many times and I agree with it as well. NTL Gordie, exactly what is it your trying to 'prove'? That 'others' get to decide for a woman's decision? I hate to break it to you, but no matter what the 'state' decides for women, women will still find a way, as they've done for hundreds of years, to abort an unwanted fetus in THEIR wombs, no matter if they are 14 or 54, for whatever their own heart/mind/body reasons are. It's simply none of your buisness.

fern hill said...

Gordie: We have a 'progressive solution' already here in Canada. There is no law because the various situations are handled properly and effectively by being left in the hands of the woman and her doctor.

Mike said...

"Henry Morgentaller is opposed to performing abortions on teenagers who've been hiding their pregnancies"

Teenagers who hide their pregnancies and get past 24 weeks have the baby. Period. Unless and until you actually come up with evidence to the contrary and that evidence needs to be in some pretty alarming numbers, you do not have a leg to stand on.

Besides, Gordie, as I have stated over and over, whether or not the fetus is 24 weeks or not, the decision of the mother is the only one that matters because until the fetus is born, it is a part of the mother's body, just like an arm, a liver or an eye. Her decision is what counts.

As is the decision of the doctor. So, even if a woman was wanting to end a pregnancy at 30 weeks (which makes no sense since she could be induced and deliver) because she simply didn't want to be pregnant, no doctor would perform the procedure.

Which is exactly what is happening now in Canada and has been happening for 20 years. Women and doctors are doing a fine job policing themselves and making the "right" decision (in your eyes). There is no need for state interference. And what a woman does with her body, at any rate, is none of your business.

No, really, none of your business. Just as what you do to your body (piercings, tattoos, drinking smoking or taking medications) is no one elses business but yours.

Why is that so hard for you to understand? Why do you think we need a law to stop something that isn't happening?

Beijing York said...

Our lawless system has worked excellently for the past two decades with no women stampeding to the nearest hospital or clinic to demand an abortion as if it were a boxing day sale item. In fact, rates have been on the decline.

Late term abortions are rare in this country and the anti-abortionists know this, that's why they mostly rely on outrageous reports from the US fetus fetishist propaganda mill.

Less stigma, greater access and more birth control education results in rare late term abortions and reduced numbers of overall abortions. Re-opening any debate is just an attempt to curtail our rights by incremental change.

jj said...

Pro choicers with their "It doesn't happen rhetoric".

Oh, ferchrissake.

I can't believe you're taking an off-the-cuff remark by Dr. M as if it was a statistic. All he was doing was laying out one LTA scenario, not saying that it is happening, and here's the numbers, etc.etc. He's basically saying they don't happen, even though the odd girl may seek one out when she's late term. (You remember the part in the quote about "We counsel those women to continue the pregnancy"?) That you could interpret this to mean there are 1000s of teenage girls getting LTAs, enough to be worth risking all abortion rights, is astonishing.

Has it not occurred to you how easy it would be to prove that LTAs are being done for "social" reasons? In the US, anti-choicers routinely send pregnant women to clinics, trying to catch the clinic doing something wrong. Think they haven't tried that up here to prove that "convenience" LTAs are happening? Of course they have -- and they've come up empty-handed. If they hadn't, we'd be hearing about it non-stop. Use your head, for heaven's sake.

Gordie_Canuk said...

"Teenagers who hide their pregnancies and get past 24 weeks have the baby. Period. Unless and until you actually come up with evidence to the contrary and that evidence needs to be in some pretty alarming numbers, you do not have a leg to stand on".

You obviously have issue with Dr. Morgentaler's assertion that this does indeed happen. No worries, but I happen to take what he said to CTV at face value.

Here's the snippet and link:


"Morgentaler said the late-term abortions are mainly performed on women who have learned of severe birth defects during tests performed late in pregnancy and on teenage girls who have tried to hide their pregnancy".

If you don't wish to believe what the Doctor is saying that's your perogative.

jj said...

Newsflash, Gordie: Dr. Morgentaler doesn't believe late-term abortions should be regulated:

"Here in Canada, intact D&X abortions are entirely legal. The one catch is that few physicians are trained to do the complicated procedure. When Canadian women need one, they're often sent to the US. In 2003, 30 women from Quebec and 15 from Ontario made the trip.

Famous Canadian abortionist Dr Henry Morgentaler doesn't believe late-term abortions need regulation — he says ethics and health considerations already guide physicians."

This is what we've been trying to tell you.

Mike said...

Looks like he's finally come out and said it.

Gordie_Canuk, pro-slavery.

Mike said...


Link from my last comment should be this one:

the life of the fetus is more important the a woman's right to control her body.

Tomorrow forced organ donations and slavery.

How progressive!

deBeauxOs said...

The viability factor is also a crock. There are women who go into labour in the last trimester of their pregnancy; if specialized trained staff, neo-natal incubators and other equipment or resources are not available, those 'preemies' do not survive a premature arrival in the world.

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